The full video with Pastor John MacArthur as a part of the Timeless Insights series.
FULL TRANSCRIPT:
- John, thank you so much for taking some time to talk to us about your personal experience, seeing Israel reborn as a nation and then teaching what it means from the scriptures over the years, and I appreciate you taking some time spend with us today.
- No, no, this is a great honor and a great privilege. Thank you, Joe.
- Thank you. Okay, so you were born on June 19th, 1939. And as we are doing this, as elder statesman of the evangelical--
- Qualifies me,
- I think you are qualified on that at a number of levels. One of which is that you were around when Israel was born, but first, what type of family were you born into? What was your theological understanding generally, but then specifically with regards to Israel, and the importance or not importance of prophecy.
- I'm a fifth generation pastor, and it goes back five generations to Scotland, and then Canada. Go back two generations to my grandfather, and when I was a little guy just before, he died in 1950, which I was 11 years old at the time. He wrote a little booklet, and it's the only booklet that I have that he wrote. And the title was, "Why You Can't Rub out the Jew." That's my grandfather. And he wrote that book back in the 1940s, to declare the truth that God had a future plan for Israel. This was before the nation was ever constituted in 1948. But he drew that from his study of the Word of God.
- So obviously they had an influence on you. When Israel was reborn in 48, you were eight, nine years old.
- I said, hey, my grandfather was right.
- That's that's nice way to begin that process.
- Yeah, and it just was something we believed would happen. We knew that there were Jews around, we never met a Hittite. An Hivite, an Amorite, Jebusite, an Amalekite, but there were Israelites all over the planet. And from my grandfather's viewpoint and my father's viewpoint, there was no more clear demonstrable validation of the Bible than the presence of Jews in the world at that time. That validated scripture in a huge way. I mean, as an apologetic for scripture. And because my father and grandfather were so relentlessly committed to the Word of God, this was just part of it. And it didn't seem to have the same role before 1948 that it began to take on after that, when the whole world realized that what the Bible had promised to Israel could in fact, really come to pass, and from our standpoint would.
- Yeah, well, it was so dramatic, and yet of course, it didn't change the view of many. But as you began to sense God's calling to go into the ministry and went through your theological training, you entered the pastorate, what age and what year?
- Well, I went through college and I was basically your college jock football player athlete. But in my heart, I had this tremendous appetite to understand what the Bible meant by what it said. That's what's always driven me. I'm driven to this day to understand the meaning of Scripture. And there was one man that I wanted to learn from, there was one man that I wanted to be my mentor. His name was Dr. Charles L. Feinberg. And I had come to know his name, because his name was in the list of those who edited the Scofield Bible. And I had heard him speak a couple of times. And I said, that's the man that I want to mentor me. So I went to Talbot seminary for that specific reason. Now here's what makes him so interesting. He is a Jew, he studies 14 years to be a rabbi. He marries a Jewish woman who came out of the Fiddler on the Roof community. So their roots run deep. He is converted to Christ after studying to become a rabbi goes to Dallas Seminary. When he graduated, the president of the seminary said, "We couldn't teach him anything. "In fact, he knew more when he got here than when he left." He went from there to Johns Hopkins. And he got a double doctorate. He got a ThD at Dallas, and he got a PhD from William Foxwell Albright in Archaeology. So he took his Jewish background, his knowledge of the Word of God, his study of archaeology and put it all together and at the core of his theology was the future of Israel. And I wanted to study under that man, and he mentored me for my three years in seminary.
- Wow, and so you came out of that program, at what year?
- I graduated in 1964.
- 64, so three years later, then, as you're just beginning your ministry. Israel goes to Six-Day War, nearly quadruples its land, re unifies Jerusalem. What was that period like for you? Both as a student and now increasing as a teacher of the Scriptures?
- Well, I just wanted the High Five my amillennial friends. I mean, it was all unfolding exactly the way the scripture said it would unfold. I mean, that's not yet the salvation of Israel, but it's the preservation of Israel, and the protection of Israel until that salvation can come to pass. So yeah, this was so affirming of my commitment to the authority and the inerrancy of Scripture to see history validating that little piece by piece as it went along. I even watched with great, great interest, the whole Entebbe thing and just watched how far ahead of everybody else they were in whatever they needed to do to make sure they preserved their nation and their people. And you could just see the hand of God and all of that. And it goes on even till today.
- It's interesting that Israel is, for centuries, people who believed the Bible literally, and that these prophecies about all prophecy, and then particularly about the re gathering the Jewish people to the Holy Land, and the rebirth of the State of Israel and all those promises that came with it and prophecies for 1800 years or so, people have take that only by faith, it was no visible evidence. In fact, the evidence was really stacked completely against it. Just again, the beginning of this conversation, what is it like to live in a period where, while you make an important point and a correct point, not to swerve into newspaper exegesis, nevertheless, you're living in a period of time unlike most pastors and theologians for the last 1900 years or so where the newspaper is providing some level of discussion point at the minimum, and even some evidence of God's hand touching and blessing the Jewish people in a way that, arguably wasn't the same for the last 18 months.
- Yeah, and I think I can get sort of come off of my grandfather's experience. When he wrote the booklet, "Why you can't rub out the Jew." He was coming off Stalin, Hitler, attempts at a genocide there was no nation Israel then. But the ethnic people had been preserved in purity and they hadn't been amalgamated and blended into all the peoples of the world like everybody else had. So yeah, so to come to the point and live at this particular time when all of that unfolds, of course, amps up my zeal for the proclamation of these truths, and my desire to tell people you're living seeing this, you can't put your head in the sand. I talked to one very, very well known theologian, and I said, "What is the establishment "of the State of Israel mean biblically?" And he said, it means absolutely nothing. And I said, "How can you possibly say it means absolutely nothing?" It is exactly what the scripture says, was going to happen. So, my goal has been to tell people get your head out of the sand, you're living, the fulfillment of this prophecy. And I know we're not yet in that eschatological period that's completely defined by the events of Daniel in the book of Revelation, but boy, living up to the edge, visibly, demonstrably, we see it in what's happening in Israel.
- Well, some would say, okay, Yes, okay. Let's say that there's a millennial kingdom, and these theologians would say, all right, and Israel will get those promises, then, but we're not there yet, and therefore, the current state of Israel can't be biblical Israel, because we're not at, the fulfillment Israel is unregenerate, it's unrepentant largely?
- Sure.
- So, you've obviously spent time with theologians who feel that way, who have that view? How do you respond to those arguments?
- I don't think this is millennial Israel. I don't think God has brought Israel to a place right now where they're enjoying the fullness of his blessing. They can't because they've rejected his son. And when, Jesus said, at the end of his ministry, your house has left you desolate. You didn't know the time of your visitation. Their back is still turned to their Messiah, they still reject the Messiah. I think in that sense, Israel has a measure of vulnerability. Look, there are generations of Jews who have died and perished in hell, and there are gonna be more until they turn to their Messiah and believe in him. So what I would say is this, that Israel is protected in a measure, and absolutely preserved as a people until the future day of their salvation. But it is when that salvation comes that all the fullness of the promises given to Abraham and David and reiterated in the Prophets, and the New Covenant passages in Ezekiel and Zachariah and Jeremiah, that all explodes on them when they turn to the one they pierced, mourn for him and as an only son and a fountain of cleansing is open to them. But the fact that they exist, and that they are there is evidence that God is working in that direction.
- Absolutely, I agree with that. And so let's take a step back for a moment. Do you remember your first trip to Israel, when that was, and why you went?
- Well, I went primarily way back early in my ministry, I think probably early 70s and maybe middle 70s. And I wanted to go for Biblical reasons I didn't really have any curiosities about the politics of Israel or even so much how it squared with the prophecy at that time, although I knew those things. I wanted to feel the land, I wanted to see the places. And of course as you know, I mean the whole Bible just changes, it goes from black and white to full color, just comes alive. And so I would go and then I would go again, and I would go again and I kept going back and I confess that while we were always dragging a bunch of people it was my adventure to try to make the whole account of Scripture really come alive because I had been there. But everything I saw was evidence again, of this astonishing preservation of God for this very small group of people that had been, really been the target of killers for generations, and they just wouldn't go away. And so it was always sort of mounting evidence of the hand of God preserving them.
- Amen, well, it is interesting, is there a particular place in Israel that you have been more drawn to?
- I like the place where they haven't built a church. Give me the hills of Galilee, give me the Sea of Galilee, anywhere down the Jordan River. I obviously love the Old City, love the Wailing Wall, I've gone into some of the synagogues, and even the synagogue by the Wailing Wall and, my heart breaks. If I have one regret, it's that I'm Scottish and I don't have any Jewish blood because all my heroes are Jewish, all of them from Moses on through Jesus and everybody else in the Scripture. But I have a special place in my heart for them and my heart reaches out to them. One of the ways God has sort of fulfilled my desire for Jewish people is that our church is full of Jewish Christians who've come to Christ. The area where our church is located for many, many years has been a dominantly Jewish community, there's a synagogue next door to our church, and it's been there, the whole duration of our church. And we're largely in that community. And I have seen the fact that the Lord is calling Jews and Gentiles to himself and they make up a huge population of our church and that's been a great encouragement to me. One of my joys is at the Masters College has a campus 10 miles west of Jerusalem, where our students go every semester and have the opportunity to communicate personally on a one to one basis the gospel of Christ, and to communicate with Jewish people their love for the Lord Jesus and the truth about Him as their Messiah.
- So this for you, I think this is true about your life overall. But it's important to point out this is not something theoretical or intellectual. I mean, this plays itself out in a practical way for you God's heart for Jewish people, and for the nation of Israel, it plays out in a practical way in your ministry.
- It does and I can give you one point in time I went to the Jerusalem conference one year, this big conference in the 80s. And there were all kinds of speakers. And Dr. Feinberg, my mentor was one of the speakers and I was there and there was amillennialist guy who got out, he was the president of Westminster seminary. And he preached on Isaiah 9, the government should be upon his shoulders and all that. And his point was, is the government of your life on the shoulders of Christ? And I thought, What is he talking about? This isn't about somebody's personal life, this is about the rule of Christ. And then he went on to give the amillennial spin. And he was followed by Dr. Feinberg and got up and he said, in his inimitable way, "So you had to come all the way "to Jerusalem, to tell the Jews "that they get all the curses literally, "but the blessings are figurative, "and they're all passed to the church?" He said that from the podium. So it was like the knife went in. And that was a very defining moment, which set in my mind, the untenable character of that view that says, every promise of cursing in the Old Testament that came on Israel literally, but every promise of blessing has been somehow taken away from them as a people and handed to the church, just is not a fair treatment of Scripture. And where does that come from in your view? I mean, how does theologians who described themselves as teaching the Word of God, how do they get there?
- We don't get there from interpreting the Bible? Because that's not there. You get there historically, it's in your sort of theological DNA that's gets passed down. I mean, you go back to 325, 325, the Council of Nicea What are they doing in the Council of Nicea? They're trying to define the nature of Christ and they're getting it right. But in the process, they make a declaration that the Jews are an odious people. And then you have Agustin come along, and Agustin is a flaming anti-semitic guy. But he gets so much right about theology, and that gets passed on and passed on. And then you have the horrors of the anti semitism of the Middle Ages. You go to Wittenberg, and you look at your hero, Martin Luther, and then you look at his church, where he preached in was a pig up there embedded in the wall, carved into the wall that represents the Jewish people and you realize that what started as a resentment against the Jews for killing Christ, gained traction and expanded and exploded and I actually believe that the contemporary notion of amillennialism is the this length of generations from anti semitism, so they don't see it for what it is. But I think that's where it was basically birthed. And it's been driven through the years by that sort of taking your theology from the last generation and passing it on. Because you can't find that in the Bible, it's just not there. The promises of God to Israel are explicit and literal, clear, unmistakable, and repeated again and again and again and again.
- And not just in the Old Testament--
- No, in the New Testament. I mean, I asked the question, was Jesus an amillennialist? Well, no, because they said to him, in Acts 1, the disciples said to him, "Will you at this time, bring the kingdom to Israel?" Well, that would have been his perfect amillennial moment. Where don't you get a crazy idea like that? I mean, we're gonna found the church, the next chapter. So just cool your heels and then everything's gonna change. It's not for you to know the times and the seasons. He didn't obviate that, the kingdom will come to Israel, later on.
- Well, if I can interject, just for a moment, you pointed out that Luke is telling us right at the beginning of Acts, that they've just gone through 40 days of teaching on the kingdom of God. I mean, it's not like this was not a topic. This was an essential topic--
- The only question they had is when--
- When not if--
- And when, is it now? And he said, Well, that's not for you to know. And then he goes on in the indictment of them he later in the book of Acts, for killing the prince of life and all of this, Peter says, and then he says, and you are the people of the covenant, not you were, or not the covenant has been canceled. You are the people of the covenant. And of course, you get to the watershed passage in Romans 11. And Paul says the setting aside of Israel is temporary. It's partial, and all Israel will be saved.
- Amen, I benefit from that. So I'm very, very grateful. We're moving in that direction and is it is amazing to see. Really, I would trace it to 1967, not even 48, though 48 was important. It's really after 67 that we begin to see a dramatic growth in the number of Jewish people coming to faith in Jesus as Messiah. There are obviously some in pre 48, and there are some between 40 and 67. But something happened in the heavenlies, that God began to lift this blindness, this hardness, because you've gone from just a couple of dozen believers, Jewish believers in Jesus in Israel in 1948, maybe 24, 25 to 15,000 today, and most of that accelerated post 67 and much of it is in the last 10 to 15 years. And then worldwide in '67, I was born in April '67. So it's a benchmark for me. There were maybe 2000 Jewish believers in Jesus on the entire planet, in 1967. And now there's north of 250,000. So in a world of 14 million or so Jewish people, we're not nearly to all Israel being saved. But that acceleration is interesting. And it comes to a point that I wanna ask you about because, you see prophecies, let's say in Ezekiel 36, 37. These are classic prophecies of the Jews being regathered to the land, and Israel being reborn. But it would appear that the physical restoration of Israel is described as being prophesied as coming first, and then a second prophecy just distinctly no and then, the Lord says and then, I will breathe life into . So a spiritual restoration seems to trail the physical restoration. Is that the way you see it? Is that an accurate view--
- No, I think it is, that is the way I see it. That is an accurate reality. I think that's what the Prophet is saying. The dry bones are gathered together and then life is breathed into them. We're waiting for that to happen. That's Zachariah. When God initiates that, and this is why I am so convinced, if no other reason that salvation is the sovereign work of God, because in Zachariah 12:10, when God desires to do it, the Spirit of grace and supplication will come on Israel, and they will mourn for the one they pierced. I think God is gonna activate that, I think God activates all salvation through a regenerating work. And at any point in time, whatever is happening is the work of God. And it's clear that that work has expanded with regard to Israel, as you just pointed out historically, and the day will come when they look on the one whom they have pierced, and that will only happen when God gives them the Spirit of grace, its grace and supplication so that they cry out and they have another view of Christ than they've ever had, just a footnote to that. I just did a 10 part series on Isaiah 53. And it was just, I can't even describe what an amazing experience it was. And I just give you a simple look at, a sort of an overview look at. The verbs are all in the past tense, and the nouns are all plural. Who has believed the report given to us? To whom is the arm of the Lord been revealed? All past tense. People look at Isaiah 53, and they say that's a prophecy of Christ's death. He was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities, chastisement of his peace, and all of that. That's a prophecy of the death of Christ, it isn't. It is not a prophecy of the death of Christ. It isn't looking forward to the death of Christ is looking backward to the death of Christ. He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities. That is a prophecy of the future salvation of Israel when they see the one they've pierced and that will be their confession. They'll look back and say we didn't believe the report. We didn't esteem him. We saw him and we thought he was being smitten by God, and afflicted because he was a blasphemer. And now we know he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities. And it goes through the whole litany of that. That whole chapter gives us the very verbiage that Israel will speak, when they look on the one they've pierced and mourn. That's what they're gonna say, "We didn't believe it. "There was nothing about his life. "There was nothing about his origin, "there was nothing about his person, "and then he was marred and his death was ignominious. "Ah, now we see it." So to me, Isaiah 53 just rises out of the Old Testament. If you look at Isaiah, the first 39 chapters are judgment, like the Old Testament, the second 27 chapters are salvation like the New Testament, if you take the second 27, the first nine are the deliverance from Babylon, and the last nine, the deliverance of the Earth from the curse, the middle nine salvation for Israel. If you bore down into the middle of those nine you are in 53, if you bore down, you're in verse five, he was wounded for our transgressions. I mean, the whole of that chapter doesn't make any sense. Unless it's Israel, making that confession and then the fountain of cleansing is open to them as Zachariah says.
- So this makes it all the more sinister. The effect if not the motive, that people who are saying God is done with the Jews because they rejected the Messiah. To follow that out, leads to very, very dangerous places, and now that's one side, that's the replacement theology side. But there's another side in American evangelicalism, at least, we're gonna love Jews. We're gonna bless Israel. We're gonna provide material and political support. But don't worry, we're not gonna tell them about Jesus. You don't have to worry, we're not gonna preach the gospel because we know that would be offensive. To me that is as anti semitic, as the other side, because the result is you think Jews cannot come to faith or "Don't worry, we won't try to help them come to faith."
- With worse consequences. This is Romans 10. This is my heart. Paul says in nine I could wish myself accursed. If cursing me could bring the salvation of Israel. I have a zeal for them, I have a passion for them and they have a zeal for God but not according to knowledge. Then he goes down through, they miss so many things, they don't understand the righteousness of God. They think God is less righteous than he is. They think they're more righteous than they are so they can please God, by their works. And then he goes through that whole thing and he finally says, how they're gonna hear, if you don't preach? Faith comes by hearing the message concerning Christ. So our obligation is the obligation of Romans 1. Paul says, I am debtor to the Jew, what do I owe the Jew? I don't owe the Jew political support, I don't owe the Jew economic stability or military backup, I owe him the gospel, that's my obligation.
- It's important, obviously, that our understanding of the Scriptures lead us to action, right? We can't just say, I believed it and begin an intellectual or theoretical exercise. For some it is, but I think that that if we understand the heart of the gospel, and the heart of God's love for a lost people. The Jews are as lost as, as the Gentiles sadly, and it's worse for us in a sense, because we ought to have known better. This is why we were made to know Christ, and to make him known, but--
- Well, it's a horror what you're talking about, because you have Jesus, looking at the city of Jerusalem and weeping and saying how often I would have gathered you as a hen gathers her brood, but you would not, you've been killing the prophets and stoning everybody that's sent to you and now look what you've done. But he weeps, I mean, His heart is broken. And then you go into the epistles. And Paul says, look, we are debtors to the Jews, we have to take the gospel to them. If we get caught up in trying to make sure we don't offend the Jews, we will have to answer to the Lord for a very serious violation of the very reason we're here in this world. And that is to proclaim the gospel first to the Jew. Jesus, first to the Jew. I have come to the lost sheep of the house of Israel first. And I think that obligation still, is on every Christians heart. It should be on every Christian's heart--
- I hope so, I'm grateful for the Gentiles that didn't say, oh, Joe, he's got some special deal or Oh, Joe is too dumb to get it. Or he's blind as a bat or all the different ways that you can make it seem like. This gospel shouldn't motivate me to take it to Jewish people or bless them. And certainly, and in the full scope of the way the gospel speaks.
- What if you just, if you take them out of the picture, God's cursed them, he's done with him, the church is everything. And it's easy to shirk that responsibility. And I think that's part of the disastrous fallout of that replacement theology. Is that obligation, that passion, with the confidence that Isaiah had in chapter six, when God said to him, Who will I send? And he says, I think out of fear, here am I send me, because of what he had just seen--
- And, a wish to be restored--
- Yeah, and the Lord says, well go and, and he says, oh, by the way, nobody's gonna listen, nobody's gonna see, nobody's gonna understand. And so he says, Well, how long would I do that? He says, Keep doing it till there are no people left, till there's nobody to talk to. Well, why would I do that? And then I love how that chapter ends. He says, because there's a stump, there's a holy seed, there's a remnant. And that's true in every generation, there's a remnant, and for this generation, we wanna reach that remnant. But there's coming a day in the future when it won't just be a remnant. After the rebels are purged out as the Prophet says the whole nation will come to Christ.
- Some theologians, some pastors, even in this modern era, are saying, okay, Israel is not currently repentant, they're not regenerate. I mean, okay, yes, more Jews are coming to faith, but in the grand scheme of things, we're not talking about mass numbers, not like what's going on in China or other places. So therefore, current Israel, current geopolitical Israel, cannot be the early stages of biblical Israel that's heading towards the Millennium kingdom, because they're not repentant. I wanna bring you back to this point from Ezekiel 36 and 37. We were talking about a little bit earlier is, is it accurate that the physical restoration will begin and then the spiritual restoration will lag behind it, but accelerate? Because if that's accurate than those, and including, I would say, just to pick one example would be John Piper, who would say, I totally believe that there'll be a restored Israel one day and a saved Israel, but current Israel can't be that because the repentance of the entire nation hasn't come first. So whether it's responding to him directly or just, to that view, how would you respond?
- Well, I would say this, there has to be a restored duly constituted national Israel geographically, there has to be, because in prophecy you have the rebuilding of the temple. In prophecy, you have the people in the land. In prophecy you have the North attacking Israel, you have the East attacking, you have the West attacking, you have the South attacking. I mean, it's clear that the world focus is against the Jews, and they're in that geographical location. When Daniel 11, and all those kind of things break loose, they're there. And then we, as you said, Ezekiel talks about the Dry Bones being gathered. There's no way to say, well, the fact that they're in the land is meaningless. They have to be in the land when the spiritual revival comes in the midst of all of this. Now, if you take Zachariah, for example, Zachariah starts out in chapter 12, with the nations of the world coming against Jerusalem, coming from all over everywhere and the Lord will not let them defeat Jerusalem and Israel. Israel's not saved yet. They don't get saved until 13:1, but in chapter 12, the onslaught of the world is on them. So they have to be there, I mean, that's not a stretch. The fact that they're, that's like my friend who said, it doesn't matter that they're there. Of course it matters, they have to be there. They have to be there for negative reasons to sign a pact of preservation with the Antichrist. And so that what we're seeing right now is so vivid a fulfillment, anticipatory preliminary fulfillment of the upcoming salvation of Israel that really is unmistakable.
- Well, you just pointed out, I think one of the strongest cases for unrepentant Israel to be in the land as a physical nation, a geopolitical nation, in addition to Ezekiel 39. And that's Daniel 9, where I think a lot more New Testament commentators are somehow more comfortable with Daniel 9 than they seem to be with Ezekiel, that's my impression. But if the nation of Israel is in the land to sign covenant with the many nations around it and the Antichrist, it has to be there. I mean, this is the point, there can't be a temple unless they're there, and yet.
- You can't disperse Jews signing a covenant, they've gotta be a collected gathered people seeking protection.
- And yet this is a thought that does seem lost even heads of major evangelical organizations. All right now what about the, let's stay on that topic for a moment. Israel coming back out of Egypt was unrepentant, though that entire generation, with the exception of Joshua and Caleb perished. However, even still, as they entered the land they're not even circumcised. It's not until after they get into the land that they realized, wait, I think this is important. I think scripturally we're supposed to be circumcised. And that happens after they re enter. I just want you to comment on that. And then the second re gathering after the Babylonian exile. I don't see Israel as being repentant and scripturally, minded until Ezra is reading the Word of God to the people and they're already in the land. And they're sort of rejoicing that they're back. But now they're hearing the Word of God, and they're moved to deep repentance. Is that accurate that Israel was not repentant on either regathering?
- No, I think you're absolutely accurate. The evidence that they weren't repentant when they came out of Egypt, is that they made a golden calf that was supposed to be a representative of the true God and worshiped him, and the slaughter and the debacle that happened as a result of that. And of course, they all died in the wilderness. No, that's absolutely true. And I think it's true in the re gathering, and it wasn't until the Word of God was read and the people repented and all that. So you could draw analogies from that. That's not necessarily a prophecy. That's not necessarily an absolute pattern, but it is a pattern. It's an analogy and I think it's a fair analogy that one can use. At least it gives us historical precedent for God bringing his people back to do a saving work in their hearts. And I think that's fair to say.
- The reason I think it's important to press on those points is because while Ezekiel does give that, specific prophecy of physical restoration and then spiritual restoration, Moses's language does seem to be if you obey me, then you get to stay and you'll be blessed. And if you don't, you'll be removed. But if you repent, then you can return. So there's that feeling and I think it gets picked up by modern commentators as well. Okay, if then, if you're repentant, then I'll bring you back. But I think both by the specific texts of prophecies of Ezekiel, among others, but then also by the pattern, it seems like God shows sovereign grace to a people that honestly has no intention of repenting, if God didn't start into motion something that was beyond us, I would say--
- That is very fair to say. One of the things that you have to recognize is that the future salvation of Israel has already been determined. That's about as reformed, as you can get. It is determined, it is declared, it is prophesied, and even details around that, that accompanying elements of history are prophesied as to the things that are gonna be happening around that, 144,000 are gonna be preaching the gospel, two witnesses are gonna be killed and preach the gospel, an angel in heaven is gonna preach the gospel. And God is gonna come and open their hearts and cleanse them, that's a saving work of God. I would draw the conclusion that that's how God always saves by a sovereign, pre determined work that he then acts out in history. So yes, I think, in one sense, there's an analogy there, but in another sense in no case, let's say in going into Israel was the nation necessarily saved? And not coming out of the Exodus, and not necessarily coming out of the captivity. There was a moment in time, when they all said, "We will obey, we will obey." And it went pretty south from there. But what you have in the eschatological salvation of Israel is a true salvation, and that's defined in Jeremiah 31:31-34. They get a new heart, the whole nation gets new hearts, the spirit is placed within them, the washing of regeneration takes place. And they don't have to be taught anymore to love. And you know all of that, That is the National salvation of Israel, that I don't think has any parallel in the past. Even in the words of Paul, not all Jews are real Jews in Romans 2, but boy in that day, there will be a full salvation of the covenant people and they will receive the promises of God.
- In other words, not only is Israel is Israel. Not all ethnically Jewish people will believe the Jewish Messiah, that would be the true Jew, biblically speaking.
- By the way, just as a footnote, I mentioned to you a little bit earlier, the word Israel is used 2000 times in the Bible, like 74 in the new and it always means Israel. Always means Israel, never means anything but Israel. So when you read Israel, that's exactly what it means, that would end a lot of speculation about whether Israel is the church.
- Amen to that, amen to that. Now, a big part of this particular project is those of you who were born before these major Bible prophecies came to pass and that's really an extraordinary thing, that you've seen something that pastors and preachers for 1900 years have longed to see, you got to see it, and now it's how do we pass down this scriptural understanding, that biblical understanding of God's heart for Israel and her neighbors who I wanna talk about that in a little bit as well. But this transmission currently as well as down to the ages is pretty important. And you came out with a new book this year, "Christ's Prophetic Plans" you helped edit that and wrote some of it, and I just wanted to quote a portion because it struck me as really relevant to this discussion of transmitting this down to younger people. You wrote, page 154. "In recent years, the Spirit of God has been moving "in the American church to revive a passion among his people "for the doctrines of grace. "Now that the glorious high ground of sovereign election "in salvation is being rediscovered, "it is also time to reestablish the equally high ground "of sovereign grace for a future generation "of ethnic Israelites in salvation, "and in the establishment of the Messianic earthly kingdom, "with the complete fulfillment "of all of God's promises to Israel." And you know that this particular chapter that you're writing, which was entitled "Does Calvinism Lead to a futuristic, Pre millennialism" I'm hoping I'm not losing people as I, but it is important and we'll define a few of these terms. "But this chapter is a call to those of a reformed mindset "to reconsider their eschatology or end times theology, "in light of their commitment to literal hermeneutics, "interpretation of Scripture, "and the doctrine of sovereign election." Basically, you seem to make the point that a reformed theologian who believes that God has chosen people for Salvation, ought too believe, therefore, that God has chosen Israel and won't break those promises. Now, not everyone who will be watching this comes from a reformed perspective, but this is a really important piece here. And I told you when we first met by phone, that when I heard a message that you gave to reformed pastor's saying, Calvinists should be sort of leading the league as it were, I don't think those were the exact words but to paraphrase, on this idea that, of course, God has a plan for national Israel, ethnic Israel, both in terms of salvation, and in this physical and geopolitical restoration. Those who believe in election ought to be leading that era, but they're not. So talk a little bit about why reformed theologians generally are perceived as widely replacement theologians or some subset of that, and then we'll talk about sort of why you believe that's the exact way wrong approach doctrinally?
- Well, I think reformed theologians pick up so much from their history, the very fact that they call themselves reformed, pushes you back to the 18th century, the 17th century, the 16th century, when all of that theology was basically coming out of the Reformation being refined and developed. So they're historically connected. They're creedal, so they pick up ancient Creeds, and the more ancient the creed, the more noble it becomes to them. So there's a certain kind of hero worship. There's a certain kind of history that they revere and they honor. And of course, you have to realize that coming out of the reformation, they were reaffirming the gospel, which had been literally smothered by the Roman Catholic system for 1000 years. So we have to applaud what they rediscovered. Sola scripturas, all of those things. But you don't have to buy the whole package. There's a certain thing in history called the progress of dogma. Theologians talk about that not all doctrines were refined at the very same time. But there's a flow in history in which doctrine was defined first the nature of God than the nature of Christ then the nature of the gospel gets worked on. And unfortunately, with the reformation, the ending, the ecclesiology, I might say, and the eschatology never really got refined. That's why you have confusion about what the church is, about sacramental means of grace. Confusion about infant baptism, and then you have massive confusion about eschatology. And they sort of punt at that point, and it's fought down, we just will turn the ball over to somebody else. So I just think that's not a place where you can land if you wanna be faithful to give the whole counsel of God. So my goal has been as someone who is a part of that movement to say, as you put it, of all people on the planet, you would say that whatever God promised to do, he will do. And if he canceled his promises to Israel, I'm getting nervous because he might cancel them to the church, because I'm banking my eternity on the fact that he's gonna be faithful to the promises he made to his church, but if he decided to change his mind with regard to Israel, that's a problem. Plus, I think the other thing is this. These guys in Reformed theology are the Paragons of exegetical effort and hermeneutical consistency on dealing with the doctrines of grace. I mean, they will parse every word down to the nets eye on every aspect that relates to the gospel. But when they come to eschatology--
- And you see the positive--
- We're all beneficiaries of it, right? We love it, and we do it. But when you come to a prophetic passage, I've actually quoted guys who said, we gotta change our hermeneutics or we're gonna end up being premillennial based on what this says so. So we can't just let it say what it says, or we're gonna end up in that terrible place of pre millennials, which is kind of like a purgatory of sorts, I guess to them. So, they just invent new means of interpretation. And my message to them is, hold fast to the enduring, high ground of your view of Scripture. Take God at His Word, and the nature of God is revealed there as absolutely sovereign and unchanging. And take the high ground of biblical interpretation, don't tamper with the rules, and you're gonna come to the right answer. And it isn't confusing, it isn't obscure, it isn't oblique, it's there. I don't think this is obfuscation, I think it's revelation. And I think God's purpose is to make it clear, and I think it can be understood, if you're faithful to interpret it the way you interpret everything else.
- So, to boil all that down, you're saying that the same Bible interpretation principles that reformed theologian applies to the rest of Scripture needs to be consistent. You're seeing the lack of understanding of Bible prophecy, and specifically prophecies related to national and ethnic Israel is an inconsistency in Reformed theology.
- Well, if I say God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, how would you interpret that? If I said, so all Israel will be saved? How would you interpret that? You're gonna change the rules on me and tell me that doesn't mean Israel? That's not fair, that's so utterly arbitrary. It's more than arbitrary, it's an injustice done to Scripture--
- And just to be clear, you're saying that the main reason that people do it is, because they're drawing that from historical figures--
- Right and that's been repeated and repeated and it's in their literature and it's defended, and it's passed down and it's placed in the Creed's, and there is a long term reformed indifference to eschatology. It's a kind of indifference. It isn't that they are all amillennialists, they aren't. In fact, I know very prominent guys that have gone through every possible option in a five year period. Because if it doesn't mean what it says, then it could mean 1000 things. So I just think they take ownership of the greatness of their theological forefathers, and the great contributions they made, and they just sort of stopped where they stopped, rather than coming all the way to the fullness of what scripture reveals.
- And part of that you point out in this book is, there was an inconsistency in John Calvin himself when it came to these issues.
- Well, it goes even before him to Agustin, upon whom Calvin based so much. Calvin wrote commentaries on every book of the Bible except Revelation. So he's the model for punting when you come to eschatology--
- As I said to you earlier, I think that's actually good, because I think we'd have to be unweaving all the rest of that. But anyway, but it is interesting that he decided that was too difficult, and that's--
- No, you know what would happen if he had written on Revelation, we'd have only one wrong view, because they'd all pile on Calvin.
- Well, you point out another point in this book, which I found very helpful, again, a range of theologians. Not a range of views, but just different people writing different chapters. You said, "Even today." There's page 142. "Even today, if one were to survey leaders "of the so called young, restless reformed movement "on the issue of eschatology, "the consensus would be that there is no consensus. "Many conservative evangelical pastors regard the end times "as somewhat unimportant, or even dangerous, "a hindrance to unity and an issue "on which doctrinal clarity is impossible to achieve." And talk to me a little bit more about that. Because again, you are influencing this world. It's a world that you have standing in, and that you understand well, because you agree on a vast majority of the doctrinal issues. Talk about the younger generation and there disinterest of Israel. And then that coming out of the interest in eschatology.
- That is a perfect illustration of the very point I'm making. They're following their leaders. They're following this latest generation of reformed guys who are following the last generations going all the way back. And they all take the same thing and just pass it on down. And I have to say as a footnote, this is against the grain of everything that's woven into the fabric of their thinking, because they're strong on the authority of Scripture veracity inerrancy, strong on the nature of God, the nature of Christ, they are relentlessly strong on every minute detail of the gospel. I mean, they will go down to the very smallest detail and proclaim the truth of the gospel. They're on all of those things fastidious and careful and thoughtful and profound and far ranging in terms of handling scripture to bring to bear upon that truth. And then they come to eschatology, and they say, I don't really care about that. It's like a personality shift. And where do they get that? Because the conferences they go to, the guys who were talking at the conference, that's their attitude. And that was the attitude of the last generation that they sat under. This is the point I'm making. So I'm trying to be a bit iconoclastic in this realm. And at first, there was a guy named John Gerstner, you may know that name. He is a paragon of reformed intellectualism, brilliant, genius level reformed scholar who said about me, because I was so on target on the gospel. He said, "MacArthur appears to be a clear thinker, "but it is obvious that he's not a clear thinker, "because he ended up where he did eschatologically. "So I can't even explain how we got to the truth "of the gospel when it's clear that he doesn't think right "or never would have ended up with that eschatology." So, I started out in the movement as that kind of guy. There's a problem here, we don't know whether this happened by luck on the gospel or what? But it's moved from there, I can tell you, Joel, because I've tried to show them exegetically, from the text through commentaries, sermons, conferences, seminars. I've tried to show them that you have to handle the Word of God the same way, you're passing on the wrong legacy. And if ever there was a generation that has no excuse, you have no excuse. Look at Israel, you have no excuses for the conclusions that you're drawing. God is fulfilling prophecy before your eyes, and you're sticking your head in the sand.
- The sad, unintended consequence, I think of this, is that a lot of Jews wouldn't be able to hear theology, the truth about Jesus, and him being the Messiah and his love for us through this group, because the first thing is, and you think, God's done with us. So it's hard to get to the Jesus's heart for Jewish people for salvation, if he doesn't have a heart for us as a people as a nation. And I think that the point that you, I'm sure this is not the first book that you've ever made this point, but that Reformed theology does not lead, intrinsically to this rejection of Israel. In fact, your view is it should be the exact opposite. I think that's an important thing, but I'm not sure that--
- It's an incomplete theology--
- Realize that it's having a gospel effect, a negative gospel effect on Jews who cannot hear the heart of what they're saying that is true, because of the mistakes that they're making, in terms of--
- Well, just to sort of set an antidote in people's minds an anecdote in people's minds. How effective has it been for me through the years to say, do you have any idea of what God has planned for you as a Jew? Do you have any idea of his promises to you, as a people as a nation? Do you have any idea of the future that God has established for you? This coming Sunday night, I'm gonna preach on the Messiah. What is the Messiah? What is the word mean? Well, how many messiahs were there in the Old Testament? Well, there were many, many messiahs with a small m, but there was one ultimate fulfilling Messiah, and he is the Messiah of Israel as well as the Savior of the world. Just talking to a Jew. I mean, you take them to a completely different place, than if you were to say to a Jew, I hate to tell you this, but whatever you read the Old Testament that God made a promise to your people, that's for us. I mean, that's a downer.
- That is a downer. If it were true, then we'd be in trouble. But the fact that's not true and other teachers. Well now let's switch this, let's turn this to, because bad theology, or incorrect theology, flawed theology has implications. It certainly has implications for Jewish evangelism. But I think that's also true about Arabs and Persians and the neighbors. So, a colleague of mine, I did not hear the message myself, but a colleague of mine, listened to your series on Jonah. And I love Jonah, I have a son named Jonah. I've actually taken Jonah to a pastors conference we did in northern Iraq, but we happen to also visit Nineveh together. And I think you made the point that in very strong language, that God had a great love for Israel's enemies, her neighbors and yet Jonah had no interest in that. Talk about your heart and your biblical lesson, your heart first is with God's heart for Israel's neighbors that none of the things that we're saying means and therefore God hates or wants discrimination against Israel's neighbors or anything.
- I would comment that from Romans 10 and 11. Because we all know the part in Romans 11 about so all Israel will be saved has God, rejected Israel? No, no, no, make an atonement, never, never be. We all know that he's gonna save Israel. But in the prior chapter, chapter 10, as he begins to lay out the litany of what the Jews don't understand, you don't understand the righteousness of God. So you go about to establish your own righteousness. You don't understand that Christ is the end of the law that he brings an end to the idea of law as a means of salvation. You don't understand justification by faith and it's not of works, it's faith. You don't understand that. And you also don't understand this. You don't understand that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. And this is again an indictment of their isolationism, of their almost racial approach to their own religion. From the very outset of the Old Testament, and when God in Isaiah 61 talked about the Messiah coming, he said, The gospel is going to the Gentiles. It's going to the planet, to the ends of the earth, and then in John 3, God so loved the world.
- Starting Genesis 12, that all of the families of earth be blessed.
- Should be blessed through the seed that's born of Abraham, not seeds, but a seed, Paul says in Galatians, Messiah. So the intent of the gospel, to simply put it this way was that Israel would be the channel to take the truth of the one true God to the world. Not that they were the end, they were the means. And when they were an unfaithful means God set them aside temporarily called out a church made of Jew and Gentile, recommission them to take this great glorious saving message to the ends of the earth, to the ends of the earth. So, there's a principle in the words of Jesus, to whom much is given, much is required. And I think the massive unbelief of Israel has brought massive judgment upon Israel, while in one hand you could say they are the people of God blessed, boy, it has been a very, very mixed blessing. They have had access to blessings, but they have been more subjected to cursing and tragedy and harm because they were given so much. The law and the prophets, the adoption, the Messiah, they had it all, everything, and when they turned their back on it, the price has been very, very high. So they have endured a terrible punishment from God through the centuries, even up until now for the rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ. But in any generation at anytime, Jew or Gentile. The gospel is extended to all who put their trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. And for the period of time in which we live now. And I think all the way until Jesus comes and establishes his kingdom, we're to take the gospel to absolutely everyone. I love in the book of Revelation. I think during the time of tribulation, they'll be the greatest revival in the history of the world. People will come from every tongue, tribe, people and nation, that's the heart of God, that's the plan of God. And I recently did a conference at our church and invited all the pastors of Arabic congregations from all over the state of California, we came together to fellowship around Christ, and around his word, and acknowledge the unique place that Israel has had as a means for God to communicate his glory to the world. And they failed, and they're judged but there will come a time of their salvation. In the meantime, God is calling out a people from Arabs and from every other racial group across the planet to become his church and to carry his message to the ends of the earth.
- So clearly God has a heart for all peoples. It doesn't matter, whether Jew or Gentile. Let's talk a little bit about Jonah, because I think that's an interesting case where you've got a prophet of Israel, a man who knows the Word of God, he's preached the Word of God, he's been given the Word of God and he won't take it to an enemy. Take a moment, just exposit for a moment on Jonah.
- Well, first of all, the principle that our Lord gave is in Matthew 5, is that you're never more like God than when you love your enemies, right? This is evidence that you're a child of God, because God loves his enemies, because we're all his enemies while we were enemies Christ died for us. So you're never more like God than when you love your enemies. Jonah was a lousy illustration of that. The thing he feared most was the conversion of the Gentiles. He didn't want them horning in on his God because he knew the character of his God, the generosity of his God, the goodness and the grace of his God. And he didn't want the Gentiles to have that, he was a very racist kind of guy. Well, of course, as the story unfolds, he would go to extremes to avoid evangelizing these Gentiles. And so he ends up, in a fish and then getting vomited up. But the worst part of the story is he goes, he finally has no choice. He preaches, the whole city repents--
- He doesn't even tell them to repent Just tells them judgment's coming--
- No he just tells them judgment is coming. And they all repent under the power of God. And he wants to commit suicide, he wants to die because he doesn't think he can live in a world where these people cashing in on the blessings of God. I mean, that is just a mind boggling attitude. But that attitude in all honesty existed in Israel at that time, and is a front to the heart of God that extends beyond his people. God's love never ended with his people, it went through his people to the world.
- That's right. So this brings to the point where I wanna start to begin to land the plane, as it were in this conversation, although I'd love it to continue because I'm really enjoying this. One side of international, but certainly American Christianity is, God is done with the Jews, replacement theology and a misunderstanding of God's heart for national ethnic Israel. But the other side of it is, again, God does love Israel and especially pro Israel view that it's so dominant both in speaking it out and acting on it. There's at least an impression if not an actual belief that God does not care for Palestinians, Jordanians, Syrians, Egyptians, Lebanese Iranians, Iraqis. So talk a little bit about how that plays itself out. In your life, you talked about having a conference with Arab pastors, I believe you said in this past year the MacArthur Study Bible has actually been published in Arabic, talk a little bit about your heart for the neighbors based on what you see in Scripture.
- What God has planned for ethnic Israel is unique, that is a national future, to be fulfilled literally. That is separate from what God has planned for the world. And what God planned for the world was that his son would die, and provide salvation for people from every tongue, tribe and nation on the planet. That is the massive heart of God. God has a unique plan for Israel as a nation, and that is in the future to save them. That is in a sense eschatologically isolated from the history of redemption. And right now God is gathering a people from every land on the planet, that's why we have the Great Commission to go to everywhere in the world. But for me personally, when I was approached by folks in the Middle East who said to me, "Would you allow us to translate "the MacArthur Study Bible into Arabic?" I was off the floor about six feet. Because the thing that I fear is because I have been strong on what the Word of God says about Israel that I would be misread. There is no Hebrew, or I don't know what they call the language, the modern Hebrew. There's no modern Hebrew, MacArthur Study Bible. I've been asked if I would consider that, sure. But I couldn't be more thrilled that there is a modern Arabic Study Bible. And there may be some other clandestine things like that as well, because that balances that concern. Yes, I take the Scripture. There is a future for ethnic Israel and a salvation for that people. But that is in itself a promise of God. The bigger and the grander scheme of God is to redeem people from every tongue and tribe and nation and to call the church to be the tool and the means by which that happens as we're faithful to the Great Commission.
- There seems to be a deeply unfortunate sense of almost a zero sum of relationship between having a biblical understanding and love for Israel, and a biblical understanding and love for Palestinians and Arabs and others. And I don't understand that, I don't see that scripturally and yet, even some that I admire others, I'm glad they love Israel, but I'm not sure if I understand where they're coming from theologically, but there is that polarization that you're either pro Palestinian, or you're pro Israel, as though this is the dividing line that scripture has set up when it has not.
- And I think you just have to be pro gospel. We just sent two of the graduates of the Master Seminary to the Middle East, in the Arab world, to give their lives. To teach pastors and leaders in the church, to strengthen the churches to expand the gospel through the Arab world. That's a commitment on our part financially and with some of the finest young families that we have in our church that have come through our seminary, we have that commitment. And wherever the Lord opens those doors for us to go, we wanna go but I do think, I think Christians need to work extra hard to demonstrate love for the Palestinians. One of the really wonderful things that's happening in our church is an increasing number of people from the Arabic world coming to faith in Christ. We actually have Bible studies in Arabic. You'll appreciate this Joel, every sermon I preach at Grace Church, every Sunday morning and Sunday night is live streamed. That means it can go around the world, in two languages, English and Arabic.
- [Joel] Is that right? I didn't know that.
- English and Arabic. Why Arabic? Because the demand has been so high, and we've had to increase the band capacity on the Arabic side, and so I preach and there's a guy in a studio, putting Arabic words to my lips. And we get mail from small groups of Arabs around a computer in the Middle East who are listening to the preaching of the Word of God. Only two languages, English and Arabic.
- That's great. Well, I wanna conclude that on two last questions. Question number one is, the importance of preaching and teaching the Word of God in an expository way, why that's important and why you think there's a growing interest in the Middle East in that. Because I agree that there is though it's not nearly enough, in my view. And then the second last one would be your counsel towards younger pastors, people going into the ministry, how to communicate God's heart for Israel and her neighbors, if the Lord tarries in the generation to come. So first just the importance of preaching the scriptures, and the whole counsel of God.
- Well, just to make it as simple as I can make it, the meaning of the Scripture is the Scripture. You don't have the message from God if you don't have the meaning. So interpreting scripture is what we do, I mean that's all you do as a pastor. I'm not the chef, I'm the waiter, God cooks the meal I need to deliver it. What else do I do but explain the meaning of Scripture? Preach the word. So I think sermonizing on topics and themes has a place. But the consistent explanation of the meaning of Scripture carries the power, because the truth is what has the power, the power is in the Word of God, understood, accurately interpreted. And again, I'd say the meaning of the Scripture is the Scripture. So if you don't know the meaning of that scripture, you don't have the revelation from God. So as a servant of the Lord, it is to give people the meaning of the Scripture. Now corresponding to that, that interest once that appetite is met will grow like crazy, I can tell you that. People are starving for the Word of God delivered that way, but they don't know it because they haven't heard it, once they've heard it, and once they begin to interact literally with the true meaning of Scripture, the Bible comes alive to them, it becomes powerful in their lives. They love it, they embrace it, they look forward to it. And so I think, if there can be some models of this in Israel, some men who do this, do it well. Listen, man doesn't live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, every word. God's true church hungers for that, they just don't have that developed appetite yet. So if people will begin to do that, it'll take over, it really will.
- I was thinking that we were just doing a conference in Israel as well as like, exact same conference in the West Bank with Palestinian pastors. Both of them were taking them through Titus, just verse by verse line by line. And it was interesting and it was so powerful to just think about God's heart for just communicating these basic truths. And this is not new. I like your point that we're not the chef we're the waiter of this. And I do think there is a growing interest. But I do think because it hasn't been, as widely practiced and modeled. There haven't been enough Paul's training there Tituses
