The Increasing Threat to Religious Freedom and Harmony in Jerusalem
Joel Rosenberg and Dr. Carl Moeller discuss the alarming rise in hostility towards Christians and Messianic Jews in Israel. They highlight recent incidents involving vandalism, defamation, and even political movements aiming to limit religious freedom.
With expert analysis and insights, they explore the theological and social factors behind this growing conflict and its implications on regional interfaith relations. Join us as we navigate this complex and urgent issue. Listen to this episode to find out more!
Transcript:
- Israel should be commended for being the greatest protector of religious freedom and liberty in all of the Middle East, right? Obviously, you can't be a believer in Jesus in Iran without being beaten or imprisoned or hanged in the public square.
- Are Christians under growing attack in Israel? And what's behind the hostility against Messianic believers? Hi, and welcome to "Inside the Epicenter with Joel Rosenberg," a podcast of the Joshua Fund, a ministry dedicated to blessing Israel and her neighbors in the name of Jesus. I'm Carl Moeller, executive director of the Joshua Fund, and today, I'm with Joel Rosenberg in Denver, Colorado. And we want to answer those very questions at this important time in Israel and the United States. Joel, welcome.
- Well, great to be with you from another part of Colorado, but yeah, I'm glad to be here in Denver. My folks live just outside of Denver, and they're not doing so great. I appreciate prayers for them. They're in their mid-80s and it's just, you know, it's a tough season of life. Lynn's mom is in the same age range and situation. They're just, their health isn't so great. So we're, we didn't, we weren't driven out of Jerusalem by persecution or anything. We just,
- Right.
- Are here in the States spending time with both of our families who need that. So I appreciate if the "Inside the Epicenter" family would be praying for my parents,
- Yeah.
- For Lynn's parents. You've got some health issues in your extended family as well.
- Sure.
- And with your in-laws. And so yeah, it's just, 'tis the season.
- 'Tis the season, yeah.
- I mean, unfortunately. But it's great to be back in the States. It's been a year since I've been here, and opportunities to have Joshua Fund board meetings in a few days, getting the whole day of prayer and strategy and planning with you and several others on our board yesterday. And then, you know, I was doing some speaking in the States and stuff. So it's mostly a family driven trip, but it's been great to be doing some ministry as well. And I'm, but this topic of the spike, not just a one-off, but a trend of hostility growing towards Christians and Messianic Jews in Israel is a real problem.
- It's troubling.
- It's something we've been covering at All Israel News on a regular basis, actually breaking some major stories about these things, covering it on the Rosenberg Report. And yeah, I'm with you that I think we've gotta focus on this in "The Inside the Epicenter" podcast because we wish it wasn't happening, but it is. And we have to under, we want our audience to understand what exactly is happening, because we don't want to give the impression that there's a blanket attack against Christians,
- Right.
- Or that all Israelis have turned against Christians or Messianic Jews. That's not accurate, but something is happening.
- Right.
- It is important. It's getting worse. What does it mean? And where do we go from here?
- Yeah. Well, there has been an uptick, and I think it is important for us to identify what's behind those upticks as well and maybe talk about some of these things. You know, right now, as we speak, President Herzog is here in the US, and he's going to be addressing the joint session of Congress and all of these remarkable things that highlight the relationship between America and Israel. And yet, one of the biggest news stories in Israel, at least from All Israel News and Rosenberg Report recently, were some of these incidents of hostility, attacked by, of evangelical and Messianic Christians being attacked even violently by Orthodox people in Israel. So maybe, Joel, you can talk a little bit about why some of these attacks have taken place and what this uptick might mean.
- Yeah. So first, I need to issue an apology to King Abdullah II of Jordan.
- Okay. This is a public apology?
- I know. And I'm gonna write about it on All Israel News. About a year ago, he gave a speech and he indicated that Christianity was under attack in Jerusalem. And I, and the language he used I thought was too harsh. It was too strong. It did, I thought it went, it wasn't that there weren't problems, but I thought he was overstating it. And I said so. That prompted a call to me from the, from a Jordanian official, not him, but, you know, saying, we don't agree with that. And can we have somebody in the Jordanian government publish something on All Arab News that, you know, counters your position?
- Yeah.
- I said, absolutely. We'd be honored to publish that. So my mea culpa here is that, while I don't think at the time it was as bad as the king was saying, it turns out he was ahead of the curve on something
- Yeah.
- That has gotten worse since then. And so now, I think some of the language he was using then might actually fit the moment we're in now. And so I need to write,
- Wow.
- You know, an op-ed on that, a column and explain that. But let me just, maybe for the way we pursue this in the podcast, let me just hit a couple of, two or three major incidences that have happened in the last, just in 2023.
- [Carl] Right.
- And then you can pull on the threads of any one of those, you know, as you see fit, Carl.
- [Carl] Right.
- The first one I would say is the bill that All Israel News broke in the spring, in March, in which two Orthodox, ultra-Orthodox members of the Knesset, the Parliament, introduced into the Parliament that would've banned anyone sharing their faith with another person of a different faith. That was true, the bill would ban that about anything, anyone trying to persuade someone else to change their faith. But it was specifically targeted at Christians. That's what the bill specifically said. And so this was basically, I characterized it as an anti-gospel bill. Ironic, right?
- Right.
- To be in Israel and you can't talk about Jesus and you can't say why he's the Messiah, why you believe it, why you hope other people will believe it. That was a serious threat.
- Yeah.
- Now that particular, one of the two authors of that horrible piece of legislation or draft legislation had actually introduced that every year since 1999. So some people in Israel, including in the government, said, this person does this all the time. It's never become a problem. Why are you so upset? The reason we were upset, the reason we exposed the story on All Israel News was because the nature of the Netanyahu government is much more skewed towards highly nationalistic Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox members.
- Yeah.
- So it was possible, in a way that it hadn't been possible for the last 20 some years, that this could have gotten, this was a train that could have left the station. And Netanyahu, even though he's always been pro-Christian, I would say, the most pro-Christian leader of Israel,
- Yeah.
- Someone who's not Christian himself, but this, but he could have been under tremendous pressure from his coalition, you've gotta let this bill move forward.
- Right.
- That would've been a threat. And that's why we exposed it. And it became a huge story in Israel and internationally. And within four days, Bibi had put out a statement saying, okay, we're never gonna let that happen.
- Yeah.
- So don't worry about that. And so that was a big story
- And that was largely because, I mean, I'm gonna just say it, the All Israel News story went viral and it was picked up,
- It did.
- By news services all over the world. And I think that put enough pressure on the Netanyahu administration to say, okay, time out. We're not gonna make, we're gonna make a definitive statement that it's not gonna happen.
- That's right, and I think Bibi, that was always his instinct. But the problem was, I don't, you know, I don't even think he'd been paying attention to the fact that two of his coalition members had introduced this bill again. And why there was a very real concern in Israel and outside that this thing could take off. Somebody has to stop it, and that has to be Bibi Netanyahu. So yes, it did go viral. It got picked up by secular media, Christian media, Jewish media. And I've never seen a story that I was part of have that much impact that fast. And I wasn't even asking people to be lobbyists.
- Right.
- I was asking people to pray. And anyway, they did. And it worked very, very, very fast.
- It was great, yeah.
- But that was a signal that we've got a problem, that there are people in the government, not just, you know, these are actual members of the sitting government of Israel that were doing that. Now that was one. Number two was the fact that the new government in Israel has several players in it, cabinet ministers, who've been very hostile to Christians and Messianic Jews. One of them is a man named Itamar Ben-Gvir. Itamar Ben-Gvir was considered so extreme in his youth that the Israeli military refused to conscript him, draft him into the military 'cause they didn't wanna put a gun into his hands.
- Oh my gosh.
- 'Cause he'd been so outspoken as an extremist, threatening violence against Arabs. They're like, there's no way we're putting a gun in that guy's hands.
- Wow.
- So they didn't draft him. He, for years, was a sort of a rabble rouser against Palestinians, against Israeli Arabs. And he actually had a photo framed in his living room for decades of an Israeli who had taken a submachine gun, walked into a mosque and started firing at everybody. And I think he killed 19 Palestinian Muslims while they were praying.
- [Carl] Wow.
- Horrible. The guy was arrested, of course, sent to prison. But Itamar Ben-Gvir revered him.
- Wow.
- Considered him a model and put his photo up in his living room for decades.
- Wow.
- Until he ran for Parliament, then he took it down. He's our new police chief. Not just police chief, he's the Minister of Public Security in Israel. And he's an extremist. And I don't say that lightly.
- [Carl] You froze.
- But that, and one other thing about that, not only are all those things about him true, but when a Messianic Jewish pastor was targeted by a Jewish extremist terrorist 15 years ago or so, 17 years ago, with a bomb to blow him up, and his family, the pastor wasn't home that day. And his 16 year old son happened to get this package of candy and stuff that was set on a doorstep, opened it up to see what it was, it blew up, almost killed this 16 year old boy.
- Oh, wow. Wow.
- The terrorist that was eventually, you know, the Israeli Jewish terrorist that was eventually arrested and convicted, his name was Jack Teitel. And he was unrepentant. He was like, darn right I did this. I would kill anybody, you know? I mean, basically, his overall view was he didn't do anything wrong. Who was his lawyer? Itamar Ben-Gvir.
- [Carl] Oh my gosh.
- Not good.
- Not good.
- He's our Minister of Public Security.
- Wow.
- That's two. Not good. Third, we had a concert a few weeks ago.
- [Carl] Right.
- Mid-June, late June, in which just evangelical and Messianic Jewish people were invited to come to the largest church, the largest evangelical church in Jerusalem, in Israel. And it was for an evening of worship music. Okay? Harmless.
- Sure. Right.
- But the deputy mayor of Jerusalem decided to mobilize young, extremist, Orthodox activists to harass, attack, shout down, prevent anybody from entering that concert. And police had to be called.
- Wow.
- More police had to be called. We show video of this on All Israel News.
- I saw some of that.
- And it was just, and it was a bad scene. And then one more, actually, it was about a week or two before that, in which the same deputy mayor of Jerusalem decided to mobilize extremists. And he himself went to shout down, attack, bully, interfere with evangelicals who were praying and worshiping and standing with Israel against antisemitism for the State of Israel right by the Western Wall in Jerusalem. And that became a huge news story as well that we covered, both on All Israel News and the Rosenberg Report. And I'm just saying, those are just a few.
- [Carl] Wow.
- But those have been some of the biggest ones and that, and we're just talking
- Yeah.
- Since the beginning of the year. So that is a bad trend line.
- Yeah, sure.
- And there's been other defamation of Christian cemeteries and vandalism against Christian churches, some of them Roman Catholics, some of them Orthodox, some of them evangelical and Messianic. So those are just a few.
- Yeah.
- But that gives you a flavor of why we're talking about this in the summer of 2023, is that, you know, because if people have been not paying attention, they might not realize there's something is going on that's hostile
- Yeah, yeah.
- To Christianity.
- Well, we're gonna talk about, more about what's behind all of that and what we can be praying about. But we're gonna take a quick break here, Joel, and then we'll come back and talk about the rest of that in just a minute. Our verse of the day today is found in Philippians 4:6-7. "Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, with prayer and petition, with Thanksgiving, present your request to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus." And our prayer requests today are to, number one, pray for the leaders in Israel that they will do the right thing and be a worthy example to others. And second, pray that God quenches every internal uprising in Israel that would destabilize peace, prosperity, and the penetration of the gospel in Israel. Well, Joel, we're back, and this is a sobering topic, and one that's a little bit difficult maybe for some of our listeners, regular listeners to understand. Some will understand why. But these, this current political climate and the social climate led by some of these radical Orthodox Jewish people in Israel against Messianic Christians, what's the, what is really behind all of that, maybe theologically or socially or, and what's driving all of this?
- Yeah, that's a good question, Carl. I think there's three elements right now. First goes back to the first century, right? John 1 tells us that He, the Messiah, Jesus, came to His own, the Jewish people, but His own received Him not, but to as many as did receive Him, the gentiles, yourself and others included, most of our audience, to them, He, the Messiah, Jesus, gave the, and the Father in Heaven gave the right to become children of God even to those who believed in His name.
- Yeah.
- So meaning, even from the first moments of Jesus appearing, you know, maybe not in the manger, but certainly His public proclamation of the gospel and doing miracles and getting people to think, I think that guy's the Messiah. Am I supposed to follow Him? Is that the really, is that really the one? Ever since then, for 2,000 years, there's been tension.
- Yeah.
- Between Jews who say, yes, Jesus is the Messiah. Thank God He's, you know, the Messiah's finally come and we embrace him. Right? And those who don't see it and are hostile to Him and see that Jesus and His followers are a threat, that's the way they see it. We're not a threat to the Jewish people. We're the greatest blessing to the Jewish people and the Nation of Israel. But there has been this perception that some Jews have, and we see it in terms of actual persecution in the first century, the Apostle Paul himself, right? Was the worst persecutor of the Church when he was Saul, a top Pharisee, just fanatical against Jews or gentiles, but at that point, it was really Jews who believe in Jesus. And he was, you know, we know his story and we know how radically he was saved. And he himself tells us, look, it's not gonna get better. I mean, all who will live a godly life in the Messiah of Jesus,
- They will be persecuted.
- Will be persecuted.
- Yeah.
- That's just what he told his young Jewish disciple Timothy. And it's born out to be true. So that's the central reason, right? There's this spiritual conflict between Jews who believe in Yeshua, in Jesus as Messiah, and those who do not. Right? That's the first thing. The second thing is the, there is a growing movement in Israel of ultra-Orthodox, or what I would say is extremist, nationalist Orthodox. They're not actually ultra, but they have an extreme version of modern national Orthodox Judaism, which, we'll pick apart in a moment. 'cause it's important to get these nuances. But there's a movement of people that they hate Jews who believe in Jesus. And they believe they're doing the right thing. I mean, I believe it's sincere what they believe, because we, it was sincere in Paul.
- Right, right.
- When he was Saul. They're wrong, but it doesn't mean they're are any less ferocious about their beliefs, just like he was. Okay? So, and that's something that's growing. It's not, you know, it's not just something that happened 2,000 years ago. It's growing and they're more politically powerful today than they were a few years ago. This particular Netanyahu government, look, Netanyahu is not this, but his, some of his coalition members are.
- Yes.
- Netanyahu is a, is a fairly secular Jew. He's respectful of Jews who are religious, and he's respectful of Christians who are sincere and devout in their faith. He believes that Christians, Netanyahu believes that Christians are a strategic ally,
- Ally politically, yeah.
- Of the Jewish people and the Nation of Israel. But he also is managing a complicated coalition where, in order to be the prime minister again, he felt that he needed, had to have these types of ultra-Orthodox, and I would say extremist, radical Orthodox in his coalition. We've never seen a coalition like this ever before.
- Right.
- So those are two elements. And I think, because they feel emboldened and they're part of the government, now, they feel, okay, we're gonna start to impose our worldview on people. I think the third reason, which is related, but it is unique and separate, is that there is a growing number of Israeli Jews who are following Jesus more than ever.
- It's true.
- Maybe not more than ever in history. The first century, we know there was several tens of thousands. We see this in the Book of Acts. It says, when Paul comes back to Jerusalem after his missionary journeys, he comes back, and the Jewish believers tell him, this is exciting. There are tens of thousands of Jews who now believe in Jesus. And so that's at least 20,000.
- Yeah.
- Maybe that was 30,000. I don't know. There's about 30,000 Israeli Jews today who believe in Jesus as the Messiah and another 5,000 or so Arab Israelis who believe in Jesus. But even more, there's a much larger, I mean, hundreds of thousands of Israeli Jews who are watching videos of testimonies about Jews who've come to faith in Jesus or are reading books or are looking or searching and have questions about, could it be that Jesus is actually the Messiah?
- Yeah.
- We have a lot of data now over the last five or 10 years of how many Israelis are looking specifically at Jesus, could He be the one and could we have missed Him?
- [Carl] Yeah.
- That combination is bothering, I would say, freaking out.
- Freaking out. Yes.
- Jews who already are hostile to Christians. Now there are many Jews who don't agree with us that Jesus is Messiah. But they're like, no, we, but okay, fine. We disagree.
- Yeah.
- But we're glad that you guys love Israel. And we're glad you guys love the Jews. We're glad you fight antisemitism. Stand with Israel and bring your tours here. So, but there is this cohort. It's small, but it exerting their influence more and more to get more aggressive, even up to the Deputy Mayor of Jerusalem.
- [Carl] Yeah.
- One of the deputy mayors, and even the minister of public security.
- Yeah.
- That's a problem. And we're having to learn how to navigate this.
- Yeah.
- Sorry, that's a long-winded answer, but that's actually the shortest way I know how to put it.
- Well, and people, you know, listening who are not familiar with this, you know, and think, well, surely a Messianic believer in Jesus, you know, practices a lot of the Jewish traditions and maybe keeps the fasts and various other things as part of their Messianic worship. How could that be possibly threatening to Jewish Orthodox people? And yet, they've coined this term called missionary terrorism to, you know, to condemn any organization, Christian, Messianic or evangelical from doing activity in the country. How do you respond to that concept? Maybe identifying it as being just a false narrative.
- Yeah. Okay. So let's try to break that out in a couple pieces. I'll try to keep it concise. I think the first issue here is religious liberty. Okay? Israel should be commended for being the greatest protector of religious freedom and liberty in all of the Middle East.
- Amen. Right.
- Right? Obviously, you can't be a believer in Jesus in Iran without being beaten or imprisoned or hanged in the public square, okay?
- Yeah.
- So there's no religious freedom in Iran. Right? You can't be an outspoken follower of Jesus and tell other people about your faith if you live in Damascus. I mean, you could potentially be a follower of Jesus and keep your mouth shut. Right?
- Yeah, or stay within your own sub-community,
- But you can't be telling people the good news that, by the way, yeah, I hope you will at least listen to and maybe even believe what I believe. You can't do that in Damascus. You can't do that in Mecca and Medina. There's not even churches in Saudi Arabia. We've talked about Saudi Arabia. I'm glad for the trajectory of overall more and more social and cultural freedoms that there are, but there isn't religious freedom yet.
- Yeah.
- So, but Israel is this amazing country, a democracy where, yes, it's a Jewish democracy. So first priority in the Israeli system is Jews get to be Jews. Like if you're a religious Jew, God bless you. If you're a secular Jew, fine. You know, whatever type of Jew you wanna be, you can be, and that includes Messianic.
- Legally.
- Now, people don't have to be happy with it, but you legally can be a follower of Jesus and be Jewish in Israel.
- Yes.
- And you can't be arrested for that. You can't be, you know, tortured for that. You can't be kicked outta the country for that. If you're an Israeli citizen and you're Jewish and you believe in Jesus, you have every right to do that. That's what religious freedom is. Israel is a signatory to the, I think it was 1949, UN Human Rights Charter.
- Declaration on Human Rights. Yep.
- In which religious freedom is a central element, including not only the right to practice your faith, but the right to preach your faith.
- Yes.
- And to change your faith.
- [Carl] That's right.
- That's now, some people say, you should be right, you should have the right to practice your faith, but you can't tell other people about it. Well, that's not religious freedom.
- [Carl] Yeah.
- It might be freedom of worship, but it's not religious freedom. You can have the, having just the freedom to worship in your own house or your own church is good but,
- It's not enough. Right.
- True religious freedom means you get to tell other people, if you want, they don't have to listen. They don't have to like it. Now, you can't harass them. You can't coerce them. You can't deceive them. But nor would we do that.
- Right.
- So being able to tell other people about your faith is critical. That's why that anti-gospel bill was so dangerous, but also the right to change your faith.
- [Carl] Yes.
- And that is religious freedom. And so Israel has it, but is it under stress? Yes, it is. And I think what, to me, at the heart of this is there's a fear growing against, amongst extreme Orthodox, ultra-Orthodox Jews that actually this gospel message is starting to be listened to and considered more seriously among Israeli Jews than ever before.
- Right.
- At least in their memory or their lifetime. And I think that's true, actually. So there's a, so if you hate that dynamic, that trend, you have to ask yourself, what am I gonna do about it?
- [Carl] Sure.
- And in a democracy, you can certainly, yeah, they have every right to protest us. But you don't have the right to, you know, beat us up.
- Sure. Right.
- Or, you know, or attack us.
- Yeah.
- Or, you know, you can't commit a crime, but you can certainly make your case against our case.
- Yeah.
- That's freedom. That's democracy, and it's messy.
- And it's messy.
- But I give Israel a, just a boatload of credit.
- Yeah.
- For how it protects religious freedom, but maybe we'll talk about in a moment, there are two deputy mayors of Jerusalem. Right? The epicenter of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. And one hates Christians.
- [Carl] Yeah.
- And one loves Christians.
- Right.
- And these two are such an interesting microcosm of the battle that's going on right now.
- Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, it's fascinating because I think you make the great point that Israel is the freest, religiously speaking, country in all of the Middle East. And there's no question about that. It, you know, most Americans who go there will be amazed that there's even any hostility against that but, you know, the Messianic community a slightly different trigger, if you will, for the hostilities that are coming there, because they are, they're Jews and they are saying, we are Jews who believe in Messiah, in Jesus. And that in itself is a different trigger than Christians coming from New York or New Jersey and, you know, and coming to Israel and, you know?
- Well, true, but Carl, what's interesting is one of the biggest brouhahas, explosions, was against gentile evangelicals at the Western Wall. They were near the Western wall. They were actually at the Southern Steps,
- I was gonna bring that up. Yeah.
- Around the corner. And those who come with us, we'll keep you safe, but when you come with us in late November, you're gonna see, and you're gonna meet Jewish and Arab followers of Jesus, and you're gonna get to walk in this land and you're gonna see the religious freedom and pluralism. It's, you know, there's a, it's amazing that like a million Muslims worship Allah on the Temple Mount,
- Yes.
- At the Dome of the Rock and the Al-Aqsa Mosque, that they have the freedom to do it. What's interesting is you're right, what we think we should be seeing, if we just think about Jewish history are Jews who hate Jesus criticizing or, sadly, attacking Jews who love Jesus. That we have a context for. What's interesting here is what this deputy mayor of Jerusalem was saying, and his, and all his rabble that he had mobilized against these evangelical gentiles from other countries who come, you know, you were there, we were there that week.
- Yeah, that's right.
- Of the Jerusalem Prayer Breakfast and the Isaiah 62 global prayer event was, you go home, like, you Christians go home. You have no right to be in our holy places. You have no right to Jerusalem. You get outta here and we hate you. And that was astonishing because, generally speaking,
- Right.
- Gentile evangelicals who stand with Israel and love Israel are widely appreciated, at least by the government and the sort of leadership.
- The mainstream. Yeah. The mainstream, yeah. And I wanna say too, it was extremely gratifying at the Jerusalem Prayer Breakfast to have the Speaker of the Knesset publicly apologize to the Christian community globally for the hostilities that were expressed there. And, you know, I,
- And he himself is secular.
- Yeah.
- Actually, he's also a homosexual.
- Yeah.
- So that was interesting that he was defending the religious freedom of Israel. And as the Speaker of the Parliament, you know, one of the highest positions, he was welcoming evangelicals from other countries and grateful that we were there. But as you recall, we also heard from Matan Kahana. Matan Kahana is Orthodox himself, a former fighter pilot, a former special forces commando. You and I and our delegation,
- Had a chance to meet with him, yeah. It was amazing.
- Last year, had had coffee with him and got to spend, you know, an hour, hour and a half with him. He was at that time the religious affairs minister. Now he's former and he's in the opposition to Netanyahu. But the point is, he himself also in the Knesset welcoming us, apologized and said this, you know, what happened does not reflect the Israeli government or the opposition, or the society.
- Society in general, yeah.
- But something is spiking that's causing sort of very aggressive, extremist Orthodox Jews to not only attack Jewish believers in Jesus, but they're, now, they're coming against gentiles. And as I mentioned earlier, but I didn't spend enough time on it.
- [Carl] Yeah.
- What King Abdullah of Jordan was raising, he wasn't even raising attacks against Jewish believers in Jesus or even gentile evangelicals. He's talking about Roman Catholic churches, Orthodox churches that are getting defaced,
- Armenian churches, yeah.
- Getting vandalized, priests being roughed up in the streets of Jerusalem. And he said that Christianity is under an existential threat. I think that was the, close to that, that was certainly the sentiment. And again, I at the time thought, well, I thought that was overblown. I would, I still wouldn't call it an existential threat.
- [Carl] Right.
- But he definitely was identifying something that I am reluctantly having to say, it's worse than I thought. It's not as bad as he said, the king said, but it is real and it's rising. And that is an aggression against all forms of Christianity. And I would say, I mean, you and I would say, I think, a Roman Catholic and Orthodox, you know, Greek Orthodox or, you know, Syrian Orthodox or whatever, Russian Orthodox, how are they a threat to anybody? They're not evangelistic, they're not trying to tell Jewish people, hey, Jesus is the Messiah, don't you want to come follow him? They're pretty quiet about that. And so what's, why would Orthodox, extreme Orthodox, why would they be so upset? Why are they harassing these people? Why are they defacing their churches? Something is going on. And it's part of a increased aggression.
- Yeah.
- And an assertion of power and of bullying.
- Yeah.
- Against people that they don't agree with. And that is problematic 'cause we also know, from their leaders, they want to impose a very Old Testament,
- [Carl] Monolithic, yeah.
- Type of Jewish law on everybody, whether they wanna follow that or not, whether it's kosher food, no buses or trains on the Sabbath.
- Yeah.
- Or a hundred other issues. But they wanna stamp out Christianity in Jerusalem and throughout Israel. That's a problem, because they're exerting their,
- [Carl] Yeah.
- Themselves in a way that we haven't seen in a while like this.
- Well, it's a growing challenge. And, you know, and even as we talk about, it's not the mainstream yet or even will become the mainstream, you know, a radical fringe can have a tremendous impact far disproportionate to their numbers, I think.
- Yes.
- You know, and I think that's what we're saying here, is that there's a real, this should be taken seriously as far as the impact that this minority is having. But, you know, I remember too, you know, I love your comment about there's a reason that some of this is being provoked, if you will, in the Orthodox radicalized communities. It's real similar to what, you know, you know I used to work with the late Brother Andrew for many years, and he would say, you know, if you're not getting shot at sometimes, you have to ask yourself, why are you not worth a bullet? And I think some of our brothers and sisters in Messianic congregations are starting to get popped up above the radar because they are making a difference. They are making some impact there. And they're drawing fire from some of those that are hostile to that.
- That's true. And I would add two quick points. One is that we're mostly, over the last, I dunno, 15 years or so, I would say, we've been in the most peaceful and relaxed and calm environment between Jews and Christians in Israel.
- Yeah.
- In all of history.
- History, yeah.
- That there's been a season where we really haven't seen these types of attacks. We had seen them in the early years of the growth of Messianic Judaism, when people were very hostile in Israel to Messianic Jews. And then, over time, we began to see Israelis shift and think, you know, look, I don't agree with evangelical Christians or Messianic Jews, but are they really such a problem? Aren't they the ones standing with us? Aren't they the, and in a world where so many people, so many other people actually hate us, are we really gonna go pick a fight with the people that love us, even though we disagree with them theologically? And I think, for the last 15 years or so, I think you, I would make the case that there, it's been fairly calm in these relations, even as Messianic Jews have been much more bold because, maybe because of the freedom. I'm not sure that's another conversation for another day. But it's true that Jewish believers in Jesus in Israel have been much more bold over the last 15 years than they ever had been.
- [Carl] Yeah.
- And it made it easier because they weren't being, their cars weren't being, you know, trashed, their churches weren't being burned. They weren't being bit up or spat upon. So that was good.
- [Carl] Yeah.
- But in that boldness, that's where the anti-gospel bill came from. That's where these attacks, because now there's a pushback. And I think it shows, yes, that there's a problem. So that's one point, but then real quick, there's one other point, and that is, I believe this is gonna get worse, not better. I'm asking people to pray that the Lord would be protective of the believers, but we would also be shrewd and we would also be innocent.
- And loving, right.
- And that we would be bold but we wouldn't be weird, you know? That we'd be, look, everybody, Jews, Muslims, everybody, they deserve a chance to at least hear the case.
- Yeah.
- That Jesus is the Messiah. Why do we believe it? What does the Bible say? And then they can make their own decisions. We're not trying to coerce people. We're not trying to, you know, trick people. They, everybody has the right to hear it. And we have the right to say it, but that doesn't mean people are gonna be always happy about it. But this is gonna get worse. Why? Well, I mean, we've got plenty of prophecy that we can get into about, you know, more and more persecution in the last days. But here's the key, and I'll close on my part with this simple point. There's a dynamic in which the Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox world is growing in Israel, even though most Israelis don't, most Israelis are secular or traditional. Only about 20 to 25% are super religious. But there's a dynamic. And what's that dynamic? Well, the Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox Jews don't have to serve in the army if they don't want to. Some do, some don't. They, if they want to study the Torah instead of get a job, the men can get subsidies from the government, so they don't have to get a job.
- Wow.
- And they don't have to pay taxes. And the government pays them. It's almost like a welfare system. And if you have more children as an ultra-Orthodox Jew, you get more money, wow.
- You get more money. And just like American welfare, you get more if you, what you subsidize, you get more of.
- Yeah.
- So what's happening is the ultra-Orthodox, and I would say, aggressive Orthodox community is actually physically growing. They're having more children, and therefore, more political influence than secular or traditional Jews or even sort of modern Orthodox but not highly aggressive, nationalistic Orthodox. That's a different show, a different topic for a different show,
- Yeah, we're gonna have to,
- The differences within modern orthodoxy.
- Yeah.
- Many modern Orthodox Jews come to me and they say, we don't agree with this, and we're horrified. We think we need to do more to work with Christians. And even you, Joel, even though you're a little spooky because you're Jewish and you believe in Jesus, that's not comfortable to us. But we still think you're an ally.
- Yeah.
- Not an enemy. And that makes them different from these others. So this is a community, the aggressive community is growing.
- Yeah.
- And that's having political implications that go far beyond just the relations between Jews and Christians.
- Yeah.
- But that is one of them, and that's a part of what we're seeing.
- Yeah.
- And what we need to be praying about, that we would, that our community would flourish and grow, but also that we'd learn to be wise and learn how to discern how to navigate in a world that doesn't like us, and increasingly, some really hate us.
- Yeah. Well, Joel, that is fascinating. We're gonna need to leave that here for now. But I think, we'll come back and do another podcast on the remarkable cooperation that we see from some Israeli Jewish people, even Orthodox people, with the Christian and Messianic communities that have been there as well, kind of the other side to the story.
- Yeah, and I think we need to get some of them on the show.
- Yeah, exactly.
- Yeah, I think, it'd be time to ask them, would you come on and talk about some of these issues?
- Exactly.
- You're Jews, you don't believe in Jesus. You're not comfortable with all this. But help us separate out and understand the dynamic.
- Yes, exactly. Well, hey, Joel, thank you so much for this podcast. And to our listeners, again, thank you for listening and to really be engaged with us on this and the work that the Joshua Fund is doing to bless Israel and the neighbors in the name of Jesus. And if you'd like to learn more about the Joshua Fund, the work that we do, you can learn about it at our website at joshuafund.com. And there, we'll give you lots of information on what God is doing in the Middle East and how the Joshua Fund is working in the epicenter to bless Israel and her neighbors in the name of Jesus and how you can participate in the healing work that we're doing in this region. And as always, if you've heard something on this podcast that you'd like more information on, you can check out our show notes. For Joel Rosenberg, I'm Carl Moeller. Thanks for listening to this episode of "Inside The Epicenter."
